Here's a big one that's an issue, but to a certain degree should not be an issue. Should gay people allowed to be married, or at least have the same rights as a married couple? Or are they just freaks that don't deserve anything and are going to burn a fiery eternity?

I'm really, really, really on the fence with this one. There *can* be compromise, if we work for it.

Christian folk: The bible says it's wrong for a brother to lay with another brother, and for a sister to lay with another sister.

People who think it's gross: Some of the stuff that goes on might seem gross to you, but for the people who have that life style it fits them perfectly and they love it.

In the United States the issue of letting homosexuals marry has been thwarted in many states, because of the fact that most of the political campaigns and the fact that all of this country was partially founded on Religion. (I know that most people being sent to America were really prison debtors, I promise I'm not too ignorant.) And the Christian faith says that homosexuality is wrong. Okay, but, how does that explain homosexuals that have faith in the Christian God? There's a way that everybody can win.

Gay couples can be together, and be in a Legal Union performed in a Courthouse by a Justice of the Peace. I know it's not the same exact thing as a Marriage, but you would get the same rights as a married couple without irritating and fanning the fire that some Christians have about how a homosexual pair getting together and calling it a marriage would be 'sacreligious.

Bah, I don't know. I'd just like to see if anyone else has the same view points / what anyone else has to say about this. It's an issue in America, and it really shouldn't be. Come on, folks. We got bigger fish to fry.

EDIT: Anyone who gay bashes will have Report clicked on their name. So...don't even bother, please.

I think this issue, along with many other issues, goes back to the religious roots of America, i.e. Christianity. If people could see passed it being a man with a man or woman with a woman, they could see real love. You can't help who you fall in love with, man or woman. When it comes to marriage, if they love each other, pay their taxes, don't committ wrong-doings (as in anything against the law, duh), then I see nothing wrong with a sheet of paper saying they are "official." But, for the gay couples who feel like the need to get married to prove to people that gay marriage should be accepted, then they need to have a reality check. Who says you need a ring and a paper saying you are married? If you're in love, what does it matter?

I'm a firm believer in the seperation of church and state. Religion and politics should not be mixed, therefore laws shouldn't be made based on a now out-of-date book (in my opinion) that was written thousands of years ago. They're are good things in the Bible, but it was written at a different time, things are much different now. We've come along way.

If a certain church wants to ban it based on it's beliefs that's the church's business and puragtive, not mine.
I don't belive that the government should ban it, it's not their place to. They aren't hurting or bothering anybody.


As for those who think that it's gross- I think that going in and having the fat sucked off of your ass during a liposuction is kind of gross, but we don't outlaw that.

Some people don't want to see two dudes or two chicks making out, well I don't want to see a chick and a dude making out either.

I've played music at a few commitment ceremonies and I must say that some have nicer decorations and things than most wedding ceremonies I've played at. And have been at churches with couples who have good values, and do a lot of volunteer work in the community.

I know some gay people, and I I don't understand why some people disgust them. They're human too, what's wrong with em?

I think that gay people should have the same rights as others, and can marry when they want.

In my country it's legal for gay people to marry each other.
And i'm perfectly fine with it. If they love each other, than you should be able to marry, no matter the sex.

That sounds a bit like a South Park episode, where the senator come up with a compromise, gay people have the same legal rights as married people, but they are not called married, but bud buddies

Orrrr, just maybe having it be marriage? So... there's no "in between?"

I agree wholeheartedly with Ashley - religion and politics should not be mixed. So, if we're basing our decisions on CHRISTIAN morals, then we are making our laws CHRISTIAN laws. It is ridiculous, and I can't believe people can be so bigoted and homophobic that they allow these things to happen.

I don't see what is such a big deal about it. You love who you love, and if you're a Christian and you think it's a "sin", let the gay people worry about it. It's not anyone else's decision to make, except the gay couple themselves.


Gaaaah. I could go on and on about this one.

I don't believe in marriage in primis, but I do believe that people are free to do whatever they want. Live and let live.

One thing that puzzles me is that Christians seem to think that they're the ones who invented the concept of marriage.
It is not exclusively owned by anyone therefore gay people should be allowed the opportunity to be married. And call it marriage coz marriage is union...it means the same thing. And Christians dont have a copyright on the word.

Marriage predates christianity. Not everyone gets married under the eyes of god...coz to some he might not exist but to them he does...but whats that go to do with them? If God has business with that...that's his problem not ours. He's the one being intolerant. Dunno why you would want to worship an intolerant god but each to their own.

If christians emphasise gay people shouldn't get married, what their essentially saying is that God wont like it and therefore God is intolerant and therefore possibly not worth worshipping in the first place.

That's how my logic works. The laws have an effect on me...im bisexual...if i fall in love, i deserve the opportunity to get married to the one i love. And have all the applicable laws to do with property and children. Laws change for married people so there is that aspect that gay people may be missing out on.

I think they should marry if they want to.

My life philosophy is: live and let live. If it doesn't affect you or other people directly: why complain?

I don't think the marriage of a gay couple can harm somebody in some direct way. It's as simple as that.

So Christianity is the only relgion that rejects gay marriage?

Out of all major world religions, Christianity is the most tollerant of homosexuals and their basic human rights.

Agreed. Always when a politician involves God in a speech I can't take them seriously anymore. Bush does this a lot and it makes me cringe.

On the subject:
I think gay marriages should be possible and people bitching about that is non of their business. As said before: How has the gay marriage any effect on them? The answer is none!
I can never imagine how it would be like to marry someone of the same sex, but if people are into it then more power to them. As long as they don't try to rub it in my face or try to convince me to do the same, all is fine in my book.

No i didn't say that christianity is the only religion that rejects gay marriage...im just focusing on them because their a big world religion and they have a big impact on american policy.

I'm not sure if this came through, but *I* have no problem whatsoever with same-sex-marriage. You love who you love, and if you can put up with and care about eachother until you die I automatically love you for that. Anybody that can do that, I applaud heavily. I just thought this would be a good topic to start because it's a *dumb* issue. Sure, people are always going to disagree with eachother. But there will never be complete compromise (and I know I just contradicted my opening post in this thread) when people drag religion into it, which is really hard for a lot of people not to do. Blahr. *mope* Why can't there be a slightly larger group of pseudo-hippies..?

"Come on people now, smile on your brother everybody get together, try to love one another right now."

More of this> :huggie: .

Less of: :bat , :horse .


EDIT: Okay the "*dumb*" thing sounds really bad, I mean that it's an issue that shouldn't be an issue. Everybody has rights, unless you're a criminal. Then, if that's the case, you should be smited and have whatever you've done done to you.

"An Eye for an Eye and the world would be blind."

Do you really think so? It seems to me, in the US, because of the whole gay marriage issue (well at least, the way I see it in homophobic Virginia :angry ), the laws have been fueled by mainly Christian views. I mean, look at the whole "say yes to marriage" bit - people were so ignorant that they didn't look at the way it affected heterosexual couples - it was all about "Reserve Rights for Straights!" It was ridiculous.

Not saying that Christians are the only ones who "hate gays". I'm sure some other people are just ignorant out of their minds, and don't base their views on any religion whatsoever.

But that's just the way I see it.

Why would you only focus on Christianity, when other major religions not only reject gay marriage, but also make homosexuality a capital offense of which the penalty is death by torture. If I were gay and falling out of a plane to the earth, I'd much rather land in a "Christian" country like the US, than say an Arab country, with all due respect to Arab countries.

The reason why is because in those countries i dont think same sex marriage is on the agenda...i think in those countries their still trying to find a way just to simply exist.

Furthermore...the most opposition in America is the christian churches and they do have a lot more powerful clout on american politics than muslims do. I think we should also bring jewish orthodoxy in to the fold as well because i'm sure they also have a big say.

People dont really listen to what other religions say except the worshippers. But because whoever is in power just happens to be christian...ye they can be a little biased. So that's why im focusing on christianity.

And as you've confirmed the US is ...a "christian" country, most of the population are christians. So if you're talkin about the US...you naturally focus on christians, because they're the status quo.

Anyway..back to the topic in question.

imo ... not letting people of the same sex get married because it's "wrong" sounds like a pretty stupid reason to me... who are we to say what's wrong & what's right? i say let people decide what's right for them!


i think that homo fobs are created... either they're raised to disapprove homosexuality or society creates them... i think that kids should be taught in school how to be tolerant.... we should accept each other no matter the religion, sexual orientation, race etc...

I think that marriage is bullshit in general (No offense to any married people here) so my views on this may be a little weird.

-On gay marriage: Let em do their thing if that's what they like, I ain't got any beef with that. They're two people in love, let em have that too.

-On marriage in general: If two people love each other, (as stated before) they don't need two rings and a piece of paper to prove it.

-On homophobia in Islamic countries: Let's face it, as I've said in many threads before, most Islamic countries are very fucked up when it comes to education. Ignorance bring intolerance, not Islam. It's not like it tells us to kill homos in the Qur'an.

It doesn't?

It says that it's wrong and shit, but Islam's a peaceful religion. I'm sure no prophet or God would brother to kill brother because of sexual preferance.

Killing for choices is man made.

Oh of course unless God has a personality disorder or something...or he's just insane.
Ok well it says its wrong but it doesn't say to kill them?

personally i don't want to get married, i just don't get the whole point of it... but i truly believe that gays should have the same rights as other couples, what happened to eaqual rights? they should be able to get married and have kids. i don't see why it's any different from whether you are sexually attracted to blondes or not.

Dolly Parton said it best when asked about gay marriage..

She said "I believe that the gays should be as miserable as us straight folks if they want"

nice :biggrin

The US has a Christian culture, but it has a secular government. A Christian culture does not put homosexuals to death. Christian cultures around the world treat homosexuals better than any other culture currently on the planet. There are very few cultures that advocate as many human rights for homosexuals as Christian cultures. And therefore, there is no reason to single out Christian cultures as the bad guys, as if we are alone in this world and/or punishing homosexuals more than other cultures. Again, if I were gay and falling out of a plane to the earth, I'd much rather land in Kansas than Iran. In Kansas I might deal with some prejudice. In Iran I might be skinned alive and turned into a lampshade.

If you want to discuss gay marriage within the confines of only the US, fine, but keep it in perspective.

It wasnt until the 15th century that anyone religiously had an opinion on homosexuality.

People's fun ruined by jealous people!

Happy New Year Raquel...thanks for keeping this place alive:)

Happy New Year to you too. I disagree with your 15th centruy statement. There have been prohibitions on homosexuality since just about the dawn of civilization. Those prohibitions are reflected in many ancient religions including Judiasm and Christianity, but certainly others as well. In earlier statements I was making the point that Christianity should not be blamed for the struggles faced by modern homosexuals. Christianity forbids the practice, however, it does not advocate the murder/torture of homosexuals at all. People forget that homosexuals currently have more human rights in the US and in Europe than anywhere else in the world. Whether you agree or disagree with homosexuality, homosexuals do not deserve to be slaughtered, tortured, or jailed. This is the prevailing attitude of the West, generally speaking, and the West is predominatly a culture influenced by the practice of Christianity.

Much has been manipulated over the years with respect to what was and is.

Pagans encouraged sexual freedom as a rite of passage.

Just an FYI- in order to adopt it's either required (depending on country) or better to be married. It's not the ONLY reason hubby & I married, but a big one. Now we have an amazing 2 1/2 year old that we adopted. So sometimes you *have* to get married.

I'm not homophobic, and as a matter of fact, my best friend is gay, but I'm not in support of Gay Marriage. Being Catholic, I feel like marriage is a sacriment, not a law or a legal process. If marriage is defined by scripture as a total binding commitment between a man and a woman and nothing else, then I can't go against that.

Not everyone has a religion. I don't think it should be an excuse to support/not support something.

Dig deeper than that. What is the REAL reason that you feel, within your soul, that gay marriage shouldn't be allowed? It doesn't affect you as a person, it affects others who are in love. Don't let your religion affect your opinion. If you honestly feel within your soul that being gay is wrong, then that's fine. But just saying "Well, just because I'm Catholic" or "I'm Christian, and the Bible says it's wrong, so I have to go with that" are cop-outs to me.

Here is a solid, non-religious argument against gay marriage.

Marriage is the cornerstone of society, and has been since the begining of time, although some historical revisionists would try to convince people otherwise. Marriage between a man and a woman is so vitally important for one reason, because it is the best possible place for children to be born into and raised. "Mom" and "Dad" play pivotal roles in the proper develpment of a child, a role that can never be filled by just mom or just dad, or by two dads or two moms, or two moms and uncle bill, or by two dads and aunt Betty. That's an irrefutable stone solid fact, it's a fact of science, biology, and psychology. Some people feel that if you start messing with the cornerstones of society, the society will inevitably crumble. Being that one in four American people believe the US will NOT be a nation in 100 years, and looking at the changing dynamics of the Western World, I personally don't think gay marriage would be an improvement to the current system. In fact, on a purely Darwinian Evolutionary level, gay marriage has absolutely no benefit or function in society, on the contrary, it's detrimental because it produces no offspring, and doesn't provide an ideal environment to raise offspring in.

I find it so funny that people forget what Marriage is and what it has been throughout history. Marriage has historically been (and still is in many cultures) the combination of two families for the purpose of consolidating wealth and the production of children. As little as 100 years ago in this country, marriages were still pretty much arranged. I'm not advocating for arranged marriages, but my point is that marriage had little to do with "love" until about 100 years ago in the West. Marriage was functional and served a specific purpose. Fast forward 100 years and marriage is not that much different. We've added "love" into the mix, and we now get to choose our partners, BUT marriage is still a function of society, it still is a legal consolidation of wealth, it still is seen as the ideal ground for the production of offspring, it is still seen as the primary familial unit. Marriage needs to serve a function. And given that, I ask what purpose does gay marriage serve? "Fairness" and "Love" and all of that fluffy stuff to me doesn't justify undoing the "sacred cornerstone of society."

Given all that, I feel that people should be free to do what they want, aside from anything illegal of course, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. But to say that "gay marriage doesn't hurt anyone" is kind of missing something. No it doesn't "hurt" anyone, it's just reinventing society. Frankly I don't want the cornerstone of society rocked. It's not just me. That's my personal opinion, you're free to disagree.

ye but sorry but christians didnt invent the concept of marriage. It's been one of those things that's been around for donkeys of years. So its not yours to own or have the right to. So thus you cannot deny or take it away. Marriage is defined by whoever gets married, it all depends on the reason why you get married. Your friend is...literally one gay person and whatever he is like and im assuming that you wouldnt like him to get married not coz he's gay but maybe coz he's not ready for marriage...whatever he's like....u cant base that on what other gay people are like and this included bisexuals as well coz it affects us.

Fact is not everyone defines marriage by scripture, some people dont read scripture. Thus marriage is not defined by scripture, there's no if.

I guess your belief is God gave you the sacriment of marriage whereas my belief is...we developed a system of marriage in order to provide a basis for solidifying alliances between tribes, a contract basically, a way of saying your not available to other men/women coz your in a ultra serious relationship. So i see it as socially constructed. Is it necessary, it isnt necessary to stay together or cohabit but...there are polciies that favour married couples over cohabiting couples. Insurance, adoption, inheritence laws (like if the person died, who would it go to?). So its not just about the feeling or the emotion...unfortunately there are aspects of marriage that are outwith our control.

I don't really like marriage because there is a load of other stuff attatched to it...its like there's small print to it. Things change when you get married. Politicians use it as a tool for getting votes...or to make people stay together under one roof so they dont have to build anymore low cost housing. Mmm. It smells fishy to me, personally. You know that way...its flawed.

I don't feel that letting gay people marry will eventually wipe out the human race. I do agree that it is vital to have heterosexual couples to keep everything going, because hell, we need to pop out offspring. However, I don't feel that our society will die off if gay marriage is allowed. We're not all going to end up being homosexual, there is always going to be those heterosexual couples who are going to want to get married and have kids, so I think we're going to be good in that aspect.

As far as marriage not always being about love, I completely agree. However, in US culture, it is. Our society has put this huge emphasis on "love" when it comes to marriage (i.e. advertisement, movies, television, etc.), therefore gay people are going to want to strive for that same feeling that straight people get. And why shouldn't they have it?

When our Founding Fathers wrote that every American has a right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", no where in that document does it say "except homosexuals". I think a lot of people forget that. Whether you agree with gay marriage or not, there are people getting discriminated against, and that's just not fair. I don't think it's so much a morality/ethics issue, but what rights should be entitled to homosexuals. We're seeing almost a mirror image of the Civil Rights movement with this topic. Remember when black couples and interracial couples weren't allowed to get married? Oh yeah. Pretty much the same thing. Except the issue now is sexual orientation and not race.

If the homos wanna get married, I'm all for it. :lol: I think everyone has a right to be happy, and if that involves getting married to whoever you "love", then so be it. Regardless of what's between their legs.


...That's just my opinion. And I respect everyone else's opinion in this topic.

I never said that homosexual marriage would wipe out the human race, I said that it would drastically change Western culture and society, and not for the better. Love is a vital part of marriages in almost all countries, but marriage is in essence not about love. It is about the legal consolidation of two families, their wealth, their goods, their name, etc. It most certainly is not about feeling good. And lastly, marriage is not a human right. It is a legal privelage granted to men and women who will *hopefully* eventually produce offspring. Producing offspring is the number one priority in the survival of a civilization, and therefore those who do so are given special benefits, because they in return benefit the society. The "right" to marry is not protected under the constitution. Homosexuals are to be protected in life, their liberty shall not be stripped away without due cause, and they are more than welcome to persue happiness and property, but no where in the constitution does it say that all shall be given the right to marry whomever or whatever they please.

I think homosexuals have the right to associate with anyone they please in any mannor that they please, and they should be able to do so without legal persecution, however, marriage is nothing less than a sacred privelage that has enormous weight in all societies. "Fairness" "equality" "love" etc. are in my opinion fluff words that don't justify tampering with societal pillars.

I apologize if I took what you said wrong Raquel. I didn't mean to mess up your words. I appreciate you sharing your opinion, and it looks like this is something we will have to agree to disagree on. :D

I personally dont believe marriage is a societal pillar and I dont believe our number one priority as humans is to make babies...perhaps when we were just animals without a specific society and all the added things we have now...perhaps we had a one track mind of procreating. But now...it seems people procreate an awful lot and to some people that's a problem. Gay people are good news because they can adopt babies that were abandoned by mothers and fathers and also...gay people can still contribute to population increase if you used a gay guys sperm or...a lesbian got one of their eggs fertilised. So there are ways around that. If its such a problem.

Marriage is legal and a formalised thing...but it was invented by humans. I think if you put a load of gay couples in a time bubble whenever you had formalised marriages then...they would have developed the formalisation of marriage. There are legal aspects attached to marriage that gay people won't feel the benefit of.

It all depends what attitude you have to marriage...its not just about love unfortunately. What is sacredness anyway?

If society is has institutions and structures that rely on people getting married then yeah marriage may have an affect on society...not sure if it will be a good or bad thing. It depends how you look at it. Fact is societies change and can adapt and construct themselves around different values. They do this all the time. The problem isn't gay people getting married but rather people hold marriage sacred and so they construct society around it. That's potentially stupid because not everyone agrees and society can change because society is the people.

Ah im a afraid im not persuaded by Raquel's argument. We will have to respectfully agree to disagree.

Just to add a slight point to all this:- I can't remember who wrote it further up this thread but I believe it was mentioned that 'mum' and 'dad' both have a role and each can only be fulfilled by a mother or father, not both but one of the same sex - foundation of a proper family.

Up until only about 150 years ago has a father actually played any form of significant role in a child's upbringing. Prior to this time - a child would be the mother's responsibility, when the father would purely be the breadwinner and would have very little interaction with a child until they were into their teens and thinking of work etc. Now, I'm not being funny, but that has worked for hundreds of years. Surely that means that the idea of a 'nuclear family' is a somewhat obsolete model?

I never said Christians invented marriage, I'm just saying why I can't support it.

*sigh*

This is one topic I've always hated talking about.

It's nothing to get upset over. We're having an intelligent, opinionated discussion on gay marriage. People are going to have opposing views, and that's fine.