Lately, there have been discussions in my country regarding this issue. It seems that my country (netherlands) seems to score quite low when it comes to the protection of privacy.
I found this to be shocking but I wasn't too surprised.
Since fucking 9/11 happened they come with excuses to give up our privacy in order to keep the country 'terrorist free'. Bullshit! I hate that we have to follow America's madness when it comes to anti-terrorism.
Over here you have to have your ID with you all the time, and there's punishment (pay money) when you don't have it with you!. I find this to be kinda disturbing in a so called 'free Western' country. All-time ID obligations remind me of Soviet cold war era's.

It also seems that Google has to save all our internet search words for 2 years. TWO YEARS! :o So they know exactly what I've searched for the past 2 years? :ugh:

What's next?

Could you please specify what you mean by "America's madness?" Please be specific to as to what policies your country is adopting that are somehow mirrored or caused by the US.

I'm rather currious, because it seems that the madness in your country is not happening in the United States. The only time I feel my privacy is invaded is when I go to the airport. But in life, at home, and at work or walking the streets, I don't feel my privacy is being unnecessarilly invaded. I don't carry around an ID with me at all times.

I think after the 9/11 thing everything seemed heightened. Im not going to introduce conspiracy theories but...i understand that there is fear of terrorist attack but i think govt in america and in britain use this as a reasonable or opportunistic motive to survey the population closer than they have ever done before. Or perhaps they have done it already but it hasnt been obvious to us.

I think what Metfuk means is that....the whole terrorist thing that pretty much sparked all the airport and other forms of surveillance ....that is americas madness...a lot of countries seem to follow on from america. And america has a big media platform so im not suprised. Places Holland prob arent used to it...being the place where u can smoke doobies (cannabis) and stuff like that.

As an anarchist...of course i think this place (our world) is more surveyed and personally the ID card thing....i dont like it...just imagine if somehow, some fascist govt or party got a hold of all your details especially if ur a minority...im a disabled anarchist (bad combination for some righties)...imagine what they could do with that info although i think the amount of info we give to companies is quite enough. It is intelligent to criticise as much as u can, the privacy laws...educate yourself...fight for every single inch of your right coz perhaps (and i hope not) at some point you might need it. You might need it.

Raquel...the privacy invasion really only is only obvious in certain circumstances..when u fall afoul of the law. In Britain..if ur an asylum seeker, u have to have a ID card now....its almost like their treated as different human beings. Its not obvious to the majority of the country who prob (unfortunately whatever way ur thinkin) wont fall afoul of the law (whoever dictates what the law is) but to some who might have a problem but who are not of any specific threat like...a protestor for anti-nulcear warfare it is a problem, in britain sometimes police officers use anti-terrorist legislation to get protesters arrested. Im just sayin the whole 9/11 thing seems to justify these things better...people dont seem to argue against it...they just seem to stand and watch and go "Ah well fair enough coz of 9/11". Keep on your toes and keep a sceptical mind.

Those are not specific examples. I understand 9/11, and I understand tightened security. But how is it America's fault Turkey requires ID's at all times, or that the UK is the world leader in surveilance cameras? Uh... we don't do that kind of stuff here. Definately not the the extent that it happens elsewhere.

Working for the police department for many years, I understand your privacy is invaded when you run afowl of the law. I see no problem with this. I follow the law, and I have not been the victim of any governmental invasion of privacy, nor has anybody that I know. I am a skeptic indeed, but I don't see the need to blame America for all of the world's problems. 'Tis all.

Governments throughout history have used the threat of "terrorism/violence" to provoke fear in which they use to take away peoples freedoms.


America has been easily turning into a fascist country.

The patriot act = allows government to spy on anyone they "suspect" to be terrorist, no need for a warrant, etc

Not to mention those who are working towards a national ID card, which will be implemented by 2014 (originally set for may 2008)

As well as the NAFTA superhighway, NAU (north american union) and many other things that are happening.



Most people don't know nor understand that the U.S. congress and government had been trying to overthrow Saddam Hussein since 1997, yet they could get no support for it. So once 9/11 happened they were able to do as they wished.


Think about it. Our own goverments have violated our own civil rights and constitutional rights more than any terrorist could ever hope to.. :td:

Raquel, Cat hit it right on the head what I meant to say.
And JITF is right: The US gov has been tapping phonelines and tracking down online data traffic since 9/11 happened. This is not acceptable. And Europe followed this 'madness' as I called it.
I personally see no need for this since attacks occur to happen anyway. You can't stop them if they really want to. Remember the London subway attack.
Maybe Western countries should stop provoking terrorists by withdrawing their forces in Afghanistan and Iraq now.

I mean...governments wonder why there are attacks but can't seem to understand that they are provoking them!
And I hate that my country chose to join forces with America and is fighting in Afghanistan now. And of course, now they are afraid for terrorist attacks and our privacy has to suffer from it. :angry
Sometimes I really hope there's gonna be a major attack on my country. Serves them right for being America's puppy dog. Maybe then they will open their eyes.

Id rather live freely and be blown up a freewoman than...live in some state where my actions are surveyed and scrutinised and i am not free. What's a life worth living if your scared half the time the government will throw you in jail for saying their wrong? im scared of my govt more than terrorists. And as corny as it sounds...terrorists ...
They may take our lives but they will never take our freedom.

But the govt will.

The US government has been tapping phone lines of suspected terrorists, not everyday US citizens talking on the phone about picking up their dry cleaning. And if you think I'm blindly trusting of my government, your wrong. I just can't imagine them sitting there listening to me talk on the phone to my doctor. And before I start throwing conspiracies around, I want some evidence of someone who was arrested for something they said in a private conversation that the government picked up on that they shouldn't have. I couldn't quote a single case, and I'm guessing you can't either.

It's very obvious you and I have completely different political ideas. We see the same world events and interpret them in two completely different ways. But do not address me as though I am completely oblivious to world affairs, or if I'm some dumb Westerner who doesn't know jack about what happens outside of my own country.

It is obvious to me that this discussion is not about privacy, but about your own hatred for the United States. Case and point:

Do you realize that if you had ommited this one little phrase from your paragraph, I would not be on your ass right now? Get a little smarter, and don't push my buttons. I refuse to allow Anti-American rubbish on my forum. It needs to stop now, or else this thread will be locked or deleted, as per the rules of this forum.

*snaps fingers 3 times in Z formation*

Sorry, I had to add some light to the situation. :lol:


Not all of us Americans are idiotic. Please don't go there. Trust me, we want our boys back home as much as you want them out. It's just not that easy.

And now I'd like to see some more opinions from people outside of the US.
It seems that US people are very patriottic and they can't stand negative shit about their country.
For the record: I never called any of you an idiot.

It's not that we can't stand negative comments about the US - I talk shit about my own country all the time. But when it gets to the point of bashing - that's when it's not cool. I'm not going around saying the Netherlands are mad/crazy/etc. You crossed a line of respect and Raquel called you out for it. That's all.

What exactly is this thread about again? Is it about how the/your/our government invades our privacy, or is this thead about how the US invades the privacy of people in Turkey and elsewhere?

Exactly.

Max is from The Netherlands, I AM the one who's from Turkey. :P

On the subject, I'm kinda pissed that my government feels the need to suck both EU's and USA's balls to have a position in world politics.

We've sent men with the US troops as well, while we have this obvious PKK problem on our hands. At the time, we were waiting for USA aproval to cross the border and attack the PKK grounds, that wasn't allowed, but sending men to Iraq is perfectly fine. As long as it's good for Mr. Bush.

Foresight: Please don't try to come back at me with "Your country ain't perfect either" (As I know some will). I'm way aware of the fact that Turkey is in a deep hole right now, but that's not the point. Please, let's not turn this into a shit sling-fest.

How did this turn into a military discussion? Wasn't it supposed to be about "any" government invading privacy?


Bah. I'm out. I'm not even going to try.

I don't really mind recording my phonecalls or my voice and actions in public places, I can tell the government everything about me, I have NOTHING to hide, nothing to be ashamed of, I am a decent citizen and I obey the law in my country. I don't see what goes wrong with this kind of 'spying', if it helps to maintain safety and peace. If you lead a normal life and I'm sure that most of you do, then what's the problem? Somebody may listen to your conversation with a friend or sth, so what? They'll listen and forget about it, big deal...

I also don't like the fact that so many people blame the US for literally everything. Unfortunately, the biggest terrorist attack happened right there, so all restrictions and rules implemented after this tragedy are absolutely reasonable. If any country follows the US in that matter then it's certainly not America's fault, you should call your countries mad/stupid/or whatever you wanna call it, because I've never heard the US impose anything of this kind on any country.

That's my opinion.

ColdestAugust, I'm sorry if the topic got out of hand but we (at least I) needed to clear things up a bit. Carry on.

American Beauty, if America claims that they're the biggest country in the world and believe that they need all praise, there are gonna be SOME arrows of blame and hate pointed at them, it's really not that big of a deal. Nothing negative. :tu:

Did they claim it?

Uh I don't see why it should be okay to be spied on.
What if you're having phone sex with your boyfriend? I guess you will feel awkward when we bring the subject of spying back up. Imagine some Secret Service employee whacking off to your conversation? No thanks!

You may feel okay about it, but I certainly do not.

Do you know it's even possible for them to track down what kind of letters you use on your keyboard? They can easily get your passwords in this way too. Spyware on your computer can use this ability.

And...ever heard of ID theft? It happened over here and in Belgium. People got lifted off their beds by the police because they did something wrong....but it wasn't them. It was someone else who abused their ID's. The same happened with their bank accounts. Tons of debt. Just awful.

Not by words, but by actions

No matter if they forget it after listening to your phone calls or not, I think its a totally repugnant thing to do onto anyone. Freedom is a human right.

Exactly, what I speak over the phone with anyone is my business only. I don't give a damn if they don't use it, I wouldn't wanna live with the fact that "someone's always watching".

Those amendments are there for a reason and I don't know why anyone would wanna skip the fourth one.

The US is extremely powerful, economically, militarly. You just can't deny.

METFUK:
I wouldn't have sex over the phone, cause it's lame :P Okay, I know, it was just an example. Oh, and they can jerk off even to my picture if they like, it doesn't harm me especially if I don't realise it :D
When I'm on the phone I don't really think whether someone's listening, and to be honest I don't care. I don't care about the fact that somebody will hear that I order hawaiian pizza or tell my grandma that I screwed up my exam etc. In fact, I will never know which conversations they register and that makes me don't care even more. By the way, it may become a great way to contact the government, you know, when you make a phonecall you can say 'hello' or e.g. that you don't like some legislation :P
Even if they read my mail... it's OK. 'Found sth interesing? Great. Did you have fun reading? Awesome!'

But it's getting messy when you have hobbies like Airplane spotting. They'll be all over you when you discuss the latest Russian military plane.
When I was younger I was very much into learning about Soviet military equipment. So I'm sure I'm (was?) somehow on notice with the secret service. That's like 6 years ago now, but still... I'm sure they kept an eye on me for some time. I knew everything about planes, tanks and missiles.

Imagine if shit went down like that.

I'm interested in Japanese Katanas, the Yakuza would be all over my ass. :lol:

No, YOU think it's lame. It can be a good thing to a relationship who is getting boring.

Back to topic: Imagine if the information actually got out of hand, and touchy facts about yourself was floating around? People might hack they're systems.

It is lame. I didn't have to add "I think" cause I wrote it, therefore it was obviously MY opinion. Stop picking at me!

My appologies, I always get you two mixed up!

Just to be fair, I'm gonna dissect your statement too.


First of all, I DO have a problem for the most part with the constant surveillance of citizens. This happens a lot in England I do believe, which has become the surveillance camera capital of the world. People are monitored from the moment they walk out of their door to the minute they return home, and I see a problem with that. Yeah, I'm a normal citizen who does normal things, but I don't want my government to monitor my every move, regardless of what they do or do not do with that footage. I think it's different when you're at a stadium or a grocery store or a clothing store, and they want to monitor people to make sure they aren't stealing or in the case of a stadium to make sure seedy people aren't afloat. I know there is facial recognition software being used and developed. This software can record people's faces and identify them. Although I feel this has some good implications, the potential for abuse is very high, and I think this kind of software should be used with discretion and should be closely monitored by societal watchdogs. Let me then say that as far as audio recording suspected terrorists or international calls to known people who are suspected of wanting to drop a bomb in my city (I live in a very populated prominant US city), I have absolutely no problem with my government doing that. As long as my government is being monitored by the watchdogs to make sure they are not abusing this power, I see no need to get upset with my government spying on people who might do me harm.


People do blame the US for a lot, and in many cases it's just prejudice and bigotry. Sad but true. 9/11 was a horrible attack on innocent civilians, but unfortunately, this kind of thing happens all over the world everyday. It was unique in the US, because our culture and mindsets were not prepared for such an attack. People here don't worry about getting blown up going into a grocery store, whereas in Pakistan, people do their daily tasks at their own risk everyday. I do agree that if other countries tighten up their security because of something that happens on US soil, it's definately at the hand of the US, and shouldn't be placed at our feet. People should try laying the blame at the feet of their own leaders, and stop pointing fingers. We are all connected, but we are all soverign.

You forget though, that we are (as of now) the primary economy of the world. This of course is changing due to our currency crumbling under our bafoonish leaders right now. I do remember a certain someone in a certain thread inside of this very forum blaming the US for the poverty in Cuba. Why? Because the US does not trade with Cuba, and therefore without the income from US consumers, Cuba is impoverished. It's a flawed rediculous argument, but an arguement nonetheless that reflects many attitudes around the world. An attitude that puts responsibility on the shoulders of the US for aid, for military support when needed, for civilian support when needed, for disaster support when needed. There is a very common saying in the US, that everybody hates the US.... until they need something. You seem to forget that if not for the US during WWII, Europe would not exist as we know it. It would be one giant fascist country speaking German. France would not exist. So the US has great responsibility and plays a major role in making this world go round. With great responsibility comes great praise. No, we are not perfect. But we do send billions upon billions of dollars to other countries, even when we don't have the money to send. So I think our ACTIONS warrant a little credit.

I think we should seperate the nationality of the person from their actions. The US and the UK are pretty powerful so i will criticise them but not because their american just because it all kinda centered around them and their media is pushed very far across the world. They have a lot of say so to change things those countries are the first countries to criticise. It seems from the media that there is widespread support for all these techniques of surveillance but if u look on the ground, there's a fair few americans who have a big problem with it but the media sets the agenda, the politicians set the agenda. Their nationality is irrelevant, it would happen anywhere...it is happening everywhere in countries we thought were free-er than others like Holland.

and americanbeauty....your assumption is that the government will always be a good government. Imagine if the government was ...communist, i dont think ud like them listening to what you write on these forums especially since you are quite anti-communist.
So basically as long as you conform and consent and agree with the govt...your fine...and if u dont your stuffed. That's why ur ok with it...coz you'll never (hopefully never) be in their firing line. But some people will...your fellow citizens who are maybe more opinionated...more informed perhaps about government actions.

This is one thing I think we can agree on. You can never assume that good government will always be good. In the founding documents of the US, measures were put in place to protect citizens for tyranny. In other words, even the founders of the US admitted that benevolent government can at any time crumble and become oppressive.

Well they were far sighted...just wish they put in more stuff but its amazing they even mentioned it. I suppose in those circumstances...independance wars and such, that was very much in their minds.

Tyranny was mentioned numerous times. I'm fairly sure it was in the top three things on their minds when they created the government some 200+ years ago. It's heavilly debated, but the Second Amendment to the US constitution deals with tyranny. The founding fathers of this nation went so far as to say arm yourself, and protect your liberty with leathal force if you have to.

Smart

Then stop picking on everyone else.