.... Are you fucking joking me?
Yea... lets just "pump" 200 billion into the banking system.

Does anyone know what "pump" means?
It surely doesn't mean extract money from rich people and put it into the banking system.
It means... printing money. Wow... more and more devaluation of the dollar...

417 points? That's nothing. If I take steroids I can hit 600 ft homeruns like McGwire too. How about telling me when the DOW goes up WITHOUT the federal reserves help... :td: :ugh:



Source: Stocks rally after Fed announcement - Mar. 11, 2008

I've always maintained that we're heading for another economic depression, considering how in debt we are from the war.

Maybe I should purchase an Iphone from the US.

You're absolutely right. Lowering interest rates will "pump" up the economy.... by printing more money and lowering the value of the dollar.

We are in a recession. I wish our government would just admit it and do something about it instead of deny it.


However, as I have been hearing over and over again regarding the artificial bump in the stock market, the Fed is kind of over a barrel. He can either let the economy putter along getting worse and worse, and letting all of Wall Street bail out causing the US market to crash, or he can lower interest rates, delaying the crash and fueling the markets, but lowering the value of the Dollar. It's a shit sandwich either way.

I do agree with you there. It's quite a disaster no matter how you look at it.

For non Americans, the low dollar is awesome. I've been buying some guitar stuff from America and it's all cheaper when it comes to payment.

Letting the economy putter along into a reccession is the only ethical thing to do. What is the point of not only pointlessly trying to avoid the inevitable but making it worse by continually debasing the currency?


Oil prices in terms of Gold hasn't changed. Its the same. Yet in dollars its up to record highs, $109 a barrell. That's obvious inflation.


We need, as a country, to realize the flaw is philosophical. We cannot police the world, be in 130+ countries and except to not fall like Rome and all the others who spread themselves too thin...

Definatly. We're going to hit another snag and I dread it. I don't like to sound like a pessimist, but eventually the well's going to run dry, you know what I mean?

Maybe I should take advantage of this and get that guitar I've been eyeing.

If I was a non-american citizen i would definitely be taking advantage :tu:

If you let the economy putter into a recession, tens of thousands of people lose their jobs. Families lose their homes. The prices of everything from food, to clothing, to utilites go up, whilst the average income goes far down. As happened in the former Soviet Union, money turns into paper, and people take wheelbarrels of this worthless money to the markets to buy bread. To allow such a thing to happen without any measures whatsoever to at least try to slow it is the unethical thing to do.

In any time of recession, utilities "commodities" such as oil and especially gold soar. Gold is approaching $1000 an ounce, because as the dollar lowers, the gold behind it goes up in value.

Our problem is much more than philosophical. To say we should become isolationists is not a practical option in my opinion. Many of our recessionary problems stem from years of job exportation for slave labor in other countries such as China and Indonesia. Under Presidents Clinton and Bush, our port doors swung open for every country to freely (without tarrif) dump their cheap goods on our shores, while getting American goods into other countries has become nearly impossible due to the high tarrifs and penalties other countries heap on the US. We as Americans are not willing to pay higher prices for American-made goods, and American manufacturers cannot compete with companies who hire slave laborers in other countries who work for pennies an hour.

War of course is a huge financial drain. Wars have bankrupted countries in the past, and it's bankrupting us. But before you blame "The War" for all our problems, I would first blame George Bush and his advisors for not getting in and getting out. When a country such as the US has a huge arsenal of 21st century weaponry, why are we going into a foreign territory and fighting hand-to-hand combat like an 18th century war? I think the politicizing of this war has caused it to drag on for years, when the mission could have been accomplished in months by some estimations, if we had done it correctly.

The comparison of Rome and the US are not as good of a paradigm as some might pretend, believe it or not. I will say that Rome fell under its own corruption, just as I believe the West (Europe and the US) will one day lose its culture and freedom if we do not pull our heads from our asses and start fighting to keep it.

Agreed. The USA has a lot of equipment to do it quickly and without so many losses. They are just too boneheaded to use any of it or use it correctly. (the amount of Abrams tank losses in Iraq is ridiculous!)

sorry incorrect.

First of all, you misjudge me. Isolationist? no thank you. Non-interventionist. There is a BIG difference.

Gold goes up? Actually, it is going up, because more people want a stable source of money, BUT gold itself has been STABLE throughout human history, this isnt just some recent event.

Gold prices to oil have remained the SAME. not just recently, but for a long long time, and in terms of the dollar, the oil has gone up... thats inflation... because the dollar is becoming weaker.


You supposedly say letting the recession "putter" or happen naturally is worse? Flushing the system with money is DEBASING and DEVALUING our dollar FASTER than any reccession could hope for. So i don't quite understand that arguement... The federal reserve with all its cuts and pumping money into the system is only a temporary relief which is nothing but false hope for what is to really come. The U.S. would be in greater shape if the federal reserve were to be abolished and we allowed our own government to print our money INTEREST FREE... as is stated and allowed by the constitution, article 1 section 8.


As for gold backing our money? That's a new one. Since the 1970's we've been completely off of ANY gold standard at all. We may have gold in fort knox and other areas (which the government refuses to be held accountable for and allow the public to know how much is in there) but ever since the creation of the federal reserve in 1913 we have been weaning off of the gold backing standard, and as i said since the 1970's we've been officially off it for good.



Our problems are philosophical. There may be other problems, but certainly these are the greatest threat. If we continue to let Presidents such as Bush do whatever they want (illegal wiretapping on american citizens, patriot act, etc) while being in 130+ countries and sending U.S. border guards to iraq... how do we expect to defend this country and prosper?

ALL fiat nations eventually crumble, as well as when they spread themselves too thin the need to debase the currency becomes greater, which leads to an even more inevitable collapse of the entire system.


I certainly hope that everyone will gather an education on at least the basics of economics and political philosophies and standards, otherwise our current government is just going to run us asunder... into the ground. end of story.

First of all hon, there's no need to be snippy. We're merely having a conversation.

Secondly, everything I said was correct. Allow me to extrapolate...

Unfortuantly, that's just your opinion. One of which I don't share to the same extent that you do. With power comes a certain amount of responsibility.

As a matter of fact, it does. Gold is a commodity like any other commodity, that increases and decreases with value due economic conditions. There are commodities more valuable than gold. When recession hits, the value of such commodities increase.

First of all, that wasn't really my argument at all. I never said that the market should be flushed with more paper money. I said that letting the US market, and hence the US economy, CRASH without the Fed even batting an eyelash is irresponsible. I'm reading between the lines and determining that you are drawing a line between Wall Street and the average US citizen. I'm reading into your argument that you think the Wall Street Fat Cats should just eat it and lose all their money because that's justice. And maybe to a certain extent they should.... however, what you don't seem to understand is that the average US citizen has a 401K or other personal investments tied into the Market. Many average US citizens work for public companies who hire and lay-off people based on market conditions. So how fair is it to those people to completely turn a blind eye to the conditions on the US market and let it hit rock bottom? Thousands of families will become impoverished, and people will lose their retirement and personal savings they've worked hard for. In closing I believe a good summary of my argument would be, we are damned if we do, and damned if we don't. We are headed for some rocky times, and there is not much we can do about it.

Oh really? The whole concept of paper money is that it is a promise, of which gold is the fulfillment of the promise. You are, however, correct when you say that since the 1970's, for the most part starting with Nixon, perpetuated by Carter and Regan, pushed to the edge of the cliff by Bush I and Bill Clinton, and the coffin nailed shut by Bush II, the gap between gold and currency has grown so wide it's quite hard to see the connection.

What exactly are these "philosophical" problems you speak of? You see, I say our problems are not philosophical, but quite tangible and definable. To say our problems are philosophical is to say that by somehow changing the way we ponder the world, we could make our financial problems evaporate. I invite you to specifically define the philosophical problems of this country, and perhaps provide a brief idea on how we could fix this problem philosophically. I am genuinely interested. I'm not sure how you connect matters of the economy to matters of national security such as your so-called "illegal wiretapping on American citizens" which is quite conspiricy theory-oriented, and which I'm sure you could not give me one solid and verifiable example of one specific American citizen who has fallen victim of illegal wiretapping by the government. I'm quite confused, because in the same breath, you speak of "defending" the country, while at the same arguing that we should not intervene in foreign matters. Hmmm....

Me personally? I really doubt the US will be around in 100 years. At least not as a "superpower" of the world. I really don't think Americans of my generation are strong enough to carry this nation to the same level of greatness of our past. I hope I'm wrong.

And I certainly hope that you are not trying to imply that I have no basic knowlege of economics and philosophy! That would be certainly humorous!

I don't agree (politically) with you often, Max, but on this I am with you 100 percent.

I apologize if i seemed snippy, i wasnt trying to be ;)
yes we are just having a friendly conversation :nanner:


Heres just a few more things i have to say, as some of what you said i agreed with (such as the US not being around in 100 years, etc)


1. It is not an "opinion" as to there being a difference between a "isolationist" and "non-interventionist". Theres a big difference, opinion has nothing to do with it.

However, as for having "responsibilities" throughout the world, i have no problem with helping out countries that need our help because of them being controlled by dictators etc, BUT we need to do it without having undeclared, unwinnable wars. The military industrial complex and governments/bankers always benefit from war.

watch this video
"Why we fight"
http://video.google.com/url?docid=34056693...BFq_FfNpclWO1LQ


I have no problem with helping others around the world,
however we cannot do it in ways that restricts our own freedoms (patriot act, hr 1055, etc) and so on. We must realize that although our intentions may be good, we cannot simply let our government do as it wishes because it will only then allow itself to become bigger and for itself to make more decisions. The role of government is to be as small as possible and to protect the freedoms of its people.

So far, our own government has taken away more freedoms and violated us more than any terrorist could ever hope for.



As for gold. yes, it is rising/a commodity. i agreed with you and i said that :)


have a good day fellas :horns2 :tu: :heart: