Hey guys...

I'm a little bumped up...I had a fight with my sister because she basicly says that all the problems of violence in our country (Portugal) are the responsability of the emigrants and we should stop their entrance in our country. She's specially againts africans :( :(

That made me mad!!! I think people should be able to find a good life wherever they want!! And there are bad people in every country or race!! Its not like portuguese people are saints!!!!

so I just wanna know your opinion about emigration...

Lots of people here in Holland share your sisters opinion, Carla.
I'm not one of them, I must add.
Here in Holland we have a lot of foreign people, from all sorts of countries really.

I agree with you, Carla. No one is perfect, wherever they come from.
Us Dutchies are not superior to the foreigners, nor are they superior to us. We're equal.

It's how people are raised what makes them do "bad things", whatever you think is bad things.

I agree with you Jennifer...

its about each individual...not one country...

I must say I freaked!!! specially when she said all people from Romania are criminals :angry

I know some people from here that are from Romania and I love them!!!

In theory, I do believe that people should settle where they want. The thing is, though, is that immigrants should respect the laws and customs of the country where they are residing, that they should fit in and behave. If they do not wish to speak the language of the country in which they are residing, and they commit serious crimes, they should be sent back to the country of their origin. They should obey the laws the way the citizens do.

Here in America, we have a lot of illegal immigration from Central and South America, especially Mexicans. It is my opinion that immigrants should come here legally, and not commit crimes nor go on welfare. Unfortunately, illegal immigrants commit disproportionate amount of crime in places like southern California, Arizona and New Mexico, and plus many do not speak English and go on public assistance. This tarnishes the reputation of the law-abiding, hard working Mexican people here, that too many Americans believe all Mexicans are illegal freeloaders.

I read a book by a man named Bruce Bawer, While Europe Slept. He is a gay American expatriate who lives in Oslo, Norway with his partner. In the book, he talks about how European countries take in many refugees, but do not bother to assimilate them into the native cultures, that they are segregated from the natives and not given any opportunities. In Norway, he said that the Norwegian government requires all people applying for Norwegian citizenship take Norwegian language lessons, which are free. However, many immigrants, especially those from countries such as Pakistan and Middle Eastern countries, refuse, saying that it is immoral for them to do so, and that they want to maintain their own culture. The Norwegian government does nothing because they do not want to appear insensitive, so he says there are immigrants living in Norway for generations who neither speak Norwegian nor work.

In neighboring Sweden, the problem is worse, he says. There, immigrants don't have to take Swedish lessons, which cost money, and the immigration people there don't do any background checks to see if the people have a criminal record or are able to work. Since many immigrants just live off welfare, Swedish taxes are amongst the highest in the world. The immigrants, mostly Muslims from Pakistan and the Middle East, are herded into ghettos like Rosengard in Malmo and Rinkeby in Stockholm, where they are basically segregated from the Swedes. They are not given Swedish lessons, and they are not encouraged to mix with the natives at all. This leads to much resentment amongst the young people, especially males, towards larger Swedish society.

Contrast this to American society, where immigrants are encouraged to assimilate, become citizens and speak English. He says that the European model isn't working, that the immigrants will only grow more resentful that they don't have opportunities, and that the only reason the people have them in their countries is out of pity. The feeling amongst Swedes and Norwegians is that while immigrants may live amongst them, they can never be truly Swedish or Norwegian, that they are to be perpetual charity cases. I know this post is quite long, but I thought this would be relevant to the discussion.

That was a great post...

Well I have to agree. I told my sister that a part of the reason some imigrants falled into criminality was ours...By ours I mean the way the government from our country treats them.

I think that imigrants should try to assimilate the new culture but keeping their own. I was highly against when in Canada islamic women couldn't show their religion in public.

Here in portugal there are some new advancements regarding free classes from imigrants who wish to learn portuguese.

however I must say that my uncle lives in the USA for about...20 something years and he feels totally excluded... :(

Carla, I may explain you what's the issue with Romanians. My friend Dusko, who cames from Romania and has been living here in Italy since a good six years, told me that they have a very severe justice system, therefore he thinks that many criminals to avoid it simply emigrate to other countries where the law system is milder. Italy is a good example of this, we have a way too permissive law system and people rarely are emprisoned due to many problems I won't go into here; here, amongst the correct immigrants, we have many people who just want to break the law. We have had some really bad problems with them, so in this moment if you ask italians what they think of immigrants you might have pretty nasty answers.
I think to solve this problem a new emigration politics should be made, at a european level. We have to make sure that when moving to another country immigrants are given the insturments to be part of it (language, knowledge of the country etc) but also we have to make sure that they actually WANT to be part of the new country. As an example, if I move to say Arabia and do not wear the veil and keep acting like I'm in Italy, it's clear that I do not respect the new country and don't want to integrate in it; a good emigration politic should avoid these situations. Here we have a law that says that when you enter a public place you have to show your face in order to be recognizable: there have been problem with islamic women that refused it. But this is the law of this country, and I think they should respect it; moreover, no one says anything if they wear the veil, just it's asked that they show their facial traits.
Just my two cents. :)

That does make a lot of sense, Irene. I heard that the Italian government is very tough on immigrants, especially illegals. Like I said, we have a problem here in the states with illegal immigrants, most people here want the government to do something about it. I highly recommend Mr. Bawer's book, the scenario he describes is pretty shocking, because here we think immigration is an American problem. All immigrants should learn the language and fit in, and try not to be a burden. I have heard about that in Romania, but I read somewhere that many immigrants from Romania are actually Gypsies, and that they cause a lot of problems. Is that true?

I agree with vanessa on this one
Everyone should be able to live in the place they want, as long as they try to fit in, speak the language work, contribute something to the society.
you don't have to throw your entire culture overboard.
things like food religion music etc. you can do/eat/listen/practice at your house. But if you go to the supermarket or such you must speak the language of the country and follow the law.
if not, I don't see why they have to be in your country...
it's like someone who is not a part of your family lives in your house, as long as (s)he helps out, follows the rules it's okay... but if he steals your money or breaks stuff on purpose you wouldn't want him/her in your house anymore.

Yes Vanessa, we have had issues with gypsies. They camp near cities, and refuse to receive help to improve their healt situation (to make the camps cleaner and such) by saying it's their tradition. They don't send kids at school because it's tradition. They are thiefs of object and kids, it has happened many a time that women have been caught kidnapping kids. Of course it's just some of them, not everybody: many try to make their traditions and life in Italy work fine togheter.

As for the governament towards emigrants, it's just in these last years that it has thoughend because the things was reaching very critical levels. We really had to try regulating the phenomen, because we have many immigrants from east countries, africa and arabic countries.
At the moment, as far as I know, illegal emigrants are sent back to their countries while legal ones are of course allowed to stay and start ther life here. It does not solve the problem, however, 'cause many of the illegal simply come back or hide, and many of the legal can't integrate, thanks to those amongst them who behave badly and provoked a true phobia in beetween italians, or don't want to. It's a truly hard moment.

I'm against (more) foreigners coming into my country.

They're the main cause of all the chaos in my country at the moment, last week there was a guy who threatened to murder a guy from the ambulance if he didn't fix up his little brother. 'You die if he dies' is what he said. :rolleyes:

They also get butthurt if there's a politician that says that 'all' those people are bad, excuse us, but it's like 90% of you guys that ruin it for the rest. So start doing something helpful by clearing out the rotten apples instead of getting all butthurt about us being 'racist' and 'intolerant'.

I can name other examples but I think I made my point.

This might seem offensive and rude and I'm sorry for that, but it's hard to write what I feel in a different language.

That doesn't sound racist at all, Bryant. I heard there's a lot of problems with immigrants in the Netherlands, that they cause a lot of crime and they don't fit in. Mr. Bawer spend time in Amsterdam and he observed that also, that the immigrants didn't fit in, and that they actually seemed to be contemptuous of Dutch people and culture. I understand why, many people here in the states feel the same way about Mexican immigration.

I think you mixed up Emigration and Immigration. Emigration means leaving a country, and Immigration means entering one.

I think that anyone should be able to live anywhere as long as they abide by the laws and don't do anything illegal.

Ireland is full people like this :(
They are especially mean to the Polish people who come over.
Just a few months ago, two Polish men were beaten to death in Dublin.. by teens between the ages of 14-18 :o
Everyone is saying stuff like "they should stop taking our jobs and infesting the country" which makes me so mad, as they just come here to make a living for themselves..
I've experienced a lot of it myself, as I'm clearly not fully Irish, but you learn to ignore the comments after a while..
All these Irish kids are brought up to treat "the foreigners" as a laughing stock.
It makes me ashamed and scared with all these racist attacks here in Dublin these days.. :ugh:

:lol:

Now you mention it. Never mind my post than. :P

I think that you're all right when saying that a person should be welcomed in a country if he stands by the law and contributes to the society but there's one huge exception-gypsies. Some of you mentioned problems with them in your countries-you haven't seen anything. I don't want to sound racist but they shouldn't be let in any country freely. And I'm truly miserable I have to run into them every day and that my government does absolutely nothing at all to deal with the problem that grows bigger and bigger. I hope that at least your governments will act smart.

Yeah, I've heard about that in Ireland. It's a tragic thing, the Polish and Irish should have a lot in common, being Catholic and all. I have friends from Eastern Europe, and they tell me that almost everyone has a relative in either Western Europe or the US, that there's few jobs in Eastern Europe. In Britain, the BNP says that "the Polish are taking our jobs", and whatnot, but according to my friends who've been to London, they say many poor British people are gross, fat, drunken, and on the dole. The Polish really are doing the job British people won't do. In that case, the British poor ought to get their act together, if they don't want Polish people taking their jobs, then get a job :angry

Sorry if I went on a bit of a rant there, but I have friends from Poland and I don't get why people don't like them or why people make Polish jokes. Polish people in my experience are not stupid, ugly or lazy; in fact, many of them appear to be quite educated, the women often look like models, and they will work at any job, no matter how crummy. If only more Americans acted like this, the president wouldn't say that illegals do the jobs Americans won't do, it's embarrassing to me as a native born American that too many people won't work and complain about immigrants taking their jobs.

You know what, that's the first time I hear about other people having problems with Polish, I can't even imagine it, I have friends from Poland too and they're way cool! I'm amazed! :blink:

I'm talking about people in Britain and Ireland, there's a lot of Polish young people there working, because they're all EU countries. One of my hobbies is reading stuff on Europe, there are a lot of Polish people in those countries because there's few jobs in Poland for young people, they go to Britain or other EU countries where they take unskilled jobs that the natives don't want, and then go home to spend time with their families. Some British people complain that Poles take their jobs, but many working class British people are on the dole, it seems as though they just want to blame someone else because they can't be bothered to get off their fat asses and work :rolleyes:

This is an interesting topic.
I think it's a difficult matter to solve for most countries. Like the stuff of 'taking our jobs'. Well they are taking our jobs because we don't want to do them. Most of the immigrants are at the bottom when it comes to job status.

Bryant, I don't fully agree with that one post. Yes, there maybe tons of immigrants that are asses. But I think there's enough of violent Dutchies too. We can be just as bad. The threatening of ambulance personnel is not only done by immigrants. It happens everywhere and by anyone it seems.

I've thought about leaving the country myself. And I've thought about how I'd fit in the other country. But when I leave it will most likely be a country that has a white population too, so they wouldn't immediatly know that I'm an immigrant. But if I do leave here, of course I will try as much as possible to fit in there. And I only wanna go when I master the language.

First of all sorry to you all...I was trying to say Imigration but I guess you all got it :)

What bugs me the most is that during the 60's (we were living a ditature) many portuguese people emigrated. We all have someone in the family that lives in other country. So we should treat the foreigners who live here the way we expect the portuguese that emigrate to be treated. Well!

But I was very happy to watch a documentary the other day were portugal was said to be one of the countries and people that respected and treated better the foreigners.

And well I also saw a thing about a place in portugal that has mostly people from ex-african portuguese territories. When you're supressed and judged since you're born its kinda natural that you feel angry. Some people just don't know how to manage it.

I really think people should be able to live wherever they want. But I'm not saying the imigrants that steal or kill are right! they should be judged acording to the law of the country they live!!! Once again I'm just saying you won't find just inocent people in your own country....

True, but check out the numbers of people in jail right now. There's less Dutch people in jail than foreign people.

Still, I get your point, it's true that there's also alot of Dutch bad apples, but I've never read in a paper that a group of Dutch boys called a woman and her daughter 'sluts' and that they spit on the ground where they walked.

And have you read the stuff about the 12 and 14 year olds punching a guy in the face because he wouldn't give the keys to his scooter? These guys just need to get better guidance because most of their parents are just unaware of what their children do.

I hope their parents are unawere. Because at my now ex high school there was a nasty case of a guy from Marocco that used to call us girl sluts, and was really rude and unpleasant with girls and also with female techers even if in a milder way. His father said it was understandable, because of their culture. :blink:
I think a good immigration politic should avoid stuff like this, as I already said. :)

I'll try to formulate my opinion as well as possible, I kinda suck at it :P

Where I live, in Norway there are quite some immigrants. A larger part of them, refugees. There has been lots of talk in the media about trouble with for them to live while they wait for their residence permit to get accepted or declined. The conditions that some of them live in are horrible, all in hope for better lives. What I think is that refugees should have the right to be protected from the miserable life they had from wherever they come from. I don't like that criminals come and invade Norway though.

There is always to sides of a case, there are many criminal immigrants in the capital for instance but also worse bastards that are Norwegian. I think that there's also alot of prejudgement towards immigrants. For instance this incident from last year: An immigrant, legal citiezen of Norway get's beat down in a park. The ambulances refuse to take him with them to the hospital even though he is unconsious and on top of all the ambulance driver said "I'm not bringing that dirty bastard in my car". That case pissed me off beyond limits.

I also don't like that some politicians try to make an image that all criminals in Norway are immigrants. Once I got a flyer from FrP saying "most criminals are immigrants" shoved into my hands.

I think that if there was put more effort into helping immigrants intigrate there weren't be all of these cases of immigrant youth gangs and that sort of stuff. For some it's the easy soloution, they can't seem to intigrate and therefor go in to gang enviroments and become criminals. At least they feel like they belong somewhere. (Not saying that it justifies their actions though)

Emmi, I posted something on this topic on the first page, and I mentioned Mr. Bruce Bawer and his book, While Europe Slept. He's a gay American expatriate in Oslo, and some of his book concerns Norway and Sweden. I thought you might want to read it, he talks about the situation with immigrants in Norway and Sweden. And I'm curious, have you yourself ever experience discrimination from other Norwegians? If you don't want to answer, I understand :)

Oh, thanks for the tip about the book. I didn't read all the posts. :blush:
I myself have experienced discrimination for Norwegians a couple of times yes. I used to be called "brunost, pakkis" and other racist words during elementary school and I have been told to go back to where I came from (Which is Norway :rolleyes: ) and one of the last days of high school I was called "a fucking immigrant" which made me think : "wow, have we got such a distorted view on immigrants that it's becomed a way to offend people?". I have a Russian friend who came to Norway some years ago and she was also discriminated quit some. It's sick. :blink:

Spain is the second country IN THE WORLD with the biggest amount of immigrants after the USA. We have loads of southamericans, africans and especially gypsies. Also lots of people from center europe who move in for 4 years and end up living here forever.

First of all, to clear some things up:
When you say "immigration" most people immediatly thing of Africans, Southamericans and Gypsies. And when they think of africans, southamericans or gypsies they think of really poor people who will destroy the life-quality of the country they enter or something.

Well, my father is from uruguay and my mother is from austria. My father left uruguay 30 years ago because there was a dictatorship and no money. So he came to spain with 800$ and my four halfsisters.
Both of my parents asked for the citizenship to stay in the country at the same time: my mom got it a few months after, my dad didn't: he had to live illegally for 5 years with 4 daughters, working like a dog until he got the citizenship.

As you see, the state (and the people) finds it awesome if a european citizen enters the country...it gives us some "status" to have german or swedish people living in Spain. But if an African family comes to work (because most of them WORK, it's only a little percentage that commits crimes, and the same goes for the national population), it's not so cool. It's then when discrimination starts.

Don't forget this one thing: nobody leaves his homeland because he wants to. Even if there's a war in your country and you have to leave, you surely would prefer to live in your homeland if there was peace...but you can't. So I would LOVE to see the people who complain about immigrants "invading" their country, having to move with their families into a strange land with new people, new culture and a new language. Also add some discrimination. Let's see how you manage to carry on.

The point in all this is always respect.
Immigrant people who came to work have to be respected. And they must respect the country they live in. If things go bad it's because there's the biggest lack of respect from BOTH parts. Immigrants aren't all saints, and not all people are racist bastards. It''s stupid to give all the fault to one or another. Instead of arguing about whose fault is this I think european and non european countries should put their efforts in a decent immigration policy.

Good post, I agree.
My mother and father are immigrants and they never harmed a soul here or commited any crime.

Emmigration is no problem in my eyes. Immigration is where the problem lies, particularly that of the illegal variety.

In my opinion, that's not always true. Or haven't you heard about normal working people who are discriminated only because of the colour of their skin, or because they are immigrants "stealing other people's jobs"? There are some immigrants who don't respect the law and the traditions of the country they live in, that's also true.
Sometimes the lack of respect comes only from ONE part, that's why it's called "discrimination".

It's not onesided because people who discriminate do it because they are scared by the violent and criminal ones amongst the immigrants. They don't discriminate just because, discrimination is a product of fear and ignorance. Nothing in this world is ever one sided in my opinion, less than less this kind of things. :)

Not only violent and criminal immigrants get discrimintated and ignorance is not the immigrants fault.

I agree, + it's not the fault of the honest and working immigrant that other immigrants from his country are being outlaws... then the honest one feels the discrimination too, only because of a few "rotten apples". Like it or not, it's a small percentage of immigrants that commits crimes.

I agree with everything that murder said, except for this statement: nobody leaves their country because they want to. This is not true. I left my homeland because I wanted it more than anything. I hope I won't be forced to come back there for good...

I just feel that everybody should be free to live wherever they want (as long as they obey the laws and local customs). Why should anybody be forced to live in a country of their birth? It wouldn't be fair, cause we don't choose where we come from. Is it my fault that I was born in Poland and my parents are Polish? Hell no! Then why should I suffer and vegetate in this place while other people have more opportunities?! I want to have equal chances for the future...

Agnes, why don't you like Poland? I once saw a show on BBC programming about young Polish people who emigrated to London, they said not only weren't there any jobs in Poland, they said it was boring and that the church controlled everything and they wanted fun. From what my friends say, London is dirty as heck, and if the church is strict, at least it keeps kids from getting in trouble. Is Poland really like that?

I think I wasn't clear enough. I'm not by any means saying discrimination is right, less than less I'm saying immigrants are all bad. What I mean is that discrimination, as bad as it is, has its causes. I'm not justifing, I would like to clear this. I just try to examine the situation from every possible point of view.

You know, it's really hard to describe it to someone who doesn't live in that particular reality. Poland sucks. In everything. It's a poor country, though maybe developing in some fields, like industrial etc. The politics in Poland is... well... embarrassing, so is the system of education. Mentality of Polish people is also horrible, I feel like I'm totally different! I don't want to have anything to do with polish emmigrants, I think they're the worst kind. One thing that annoys me in my fellow countrymen is that wherever they go on emmigration they create their own polish community!!! Fuck, they could at least leave their polishness behind! It pisses me off that immigrants bring their own customs and traditions to different countries, I think they should just ADJUST. It's OK to leave your country and what is the point in bring it over with you? :wacko: And yeah... Poland is a catholic country and the church controlls a lot of aspects of our lives! You can basically say that Poland isn't a secular country in reality!!! :angry

That's about it. I really don't want to get into details, cause I wouldn't know where to start, there's so much stuff....

^^ You forgot to mention that the pay for jobs suck too.

I agree that it is stupid that immigrants try to set up their community with all their old habits. But the Polish people (or any other who move to other countries for work) don't move out because they really love the country they are going to. They just go for the money.

You went out of Poland for a different reason. You hate just about everything and you like other countries more. If I were to move out of my country, it would be for the same reasons, and, automatically we are willing to adapt to the standards of the country of destination, because we actually love it.

Well that's true, although I still feel like immigrants should adjust themselves no matter what, even against their will, cause that's the way it is, when you leave Poland you're in a different country, not in Poland anymore, it's so absolutely obvious...

@ Irene: I didn't htink you were justifying discrimination! It just sounded "weird". But I get your point, I guess you mean that discrimination has its reasons (most of the times), but that still doesn't justify discrimination, right?

@Agnes: I sort of knew that someone would bring that up after I re-read my post...I agree with you, some people leave their country because they want to live somewhere else, but when this happens, these people don't leave their countries because they need to. They do it because they want to and if they aren't capable of starting a new life in a foreign country, they can get back to their homeland and go on with their usual lives. I think that your case is different from the cases of people who have to leave their country and families behind because they have no choice (I'm not saying by any means that it's easy for you to start a new life somewhere else, but maybe it's not as hard).